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This video discusses the differences between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and other Christian religions. It also outlines some of their basic beliefs. Anti-Mormon propaganda has become quite trendy of late, and I thought it would be fair for someone to submit a video from the Mormon perspective.
I would rather not be fair.
but then i just watched September Dawn.
I would rather ask.... is Mormons more or less of a con game, than say, Scientology? I actually liked L. Ron Hubbard, can't say the same for Joe Smith.
Mormonism = the church of the latter day saints and the elders and the corrupt and etc.
But what impressed me the most about the Mormon church is that they basically taught me the morals I hold true today. They didn't just teach the kids in Sunday school not to lie because "God says so." They explored the consequences of things like lying and stealing. We'd do role-plays where they'd make us think about the consequences our actions had on other people. Like, for instance, if you shoplifted a toy you really wanted, how would the toy store owner feel? How would he feed his family if people kept stealing the stuff in his shop? The fire-and-brimstone Christian churches I later attended never impressed me much with their Bible beating compared to this style of teaching.
This is not to say Mormons aren't without their flaws. In some ways, they do resemble a cult. When my family left, they hounded us for years trying to "save our souls" and get us to come back. They would just show up unannounced at our house or call at random hours. It was more annoying than anything else.
Another downside was the whole proselytizing thing--I distinctly remember being told as a child that if I wanted to be able to play with my friends in heaven that I'd have to convince them to become Mormons too. Otherwise I wouldn't see them there. To put that into perspective though, my Dad's priest told him the same thing about his Protestant friends back when he was a kid. The Mormon religion hasn't got a lock on the conversion market by any means.
All things considered, I find the Mormon religion to be relatively harmless. Yes, they believe in some odd things like the Book of Mormon, but at the end of the day, unlike a lot of self-proclaimed Christians, I found the Mormons to do more than just give lip service to their values and actually practice what they preach.
Praise Flying Spaghetti Monster!! There is but ONE Flying monster - Flying Spaghetti Monster!!!!!!! YES!~ Become a Pastafarian BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!!!
I looked up some info on "September Dawn" for you:
The film has received extraordinarily unfavorable reviews, and holds a 13% overall rating and a 0% Cream of the Crop rating at the aggregate site Rotten Tomatoes as of February 6, 2008. It received a rare "zero stars" review from film critic Roger Ebert, and the New York Post gave the movie an unusual 0/4.
The film has been described by various critics (most or all of whom are not LDS) as "the year's first honest-to-goodness exploitation flick," as "carrying an anti-Mormon agenda," as "some sort of attack piece on the Mormon religion," as "little more than wild-eyed anti-Mormon propaganda," as "a stridently anti-Mormon and cliché-heavy melodrama," as "unbelievably ugly and an insult to Mormons," as a "Swift Boating of Mormonism that advocates the religious intolerance it’s supposedly condemning," as "clearly anti-Mormon," as an "anti-Mormon broadside" that is "certain to fan the flames of hatred toward America's largest homegrown religion and continue the persecution that terrified the original Mormons."
The movie has "the chilling certitude of the self-righteous" that goes beyond "mockery" and is "practically a call to jihad [against Mormons]." It "equates the institution of the Mormon church with Islamic extremism at every opportunity," it is "propaganda pure and simple," is "filmmaking at its worst...full of propaganda," and it "goes way beyond history into the realm of speculation, rumor, myth and gossip." Critics further state that the movie "feel[s] like blatant propaganda," and that there is an "unmistakable air of evil about this enterprise, and not just an atrocity the Mormon church caused to happen 150 years ago" and its negative portrayal of Mormons is "unsubtle (in the manner most closely associated with Dr. Goebbels)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Dawn
Ummmm...soooo...I wouldn't exactly base my opinions about Mormons on that movie.
Furthermore, Mormons do not pay their clergy and so are FAR FAR FAR less likely to be corrupt than other religions. I don't really see how corruption plays a role at all.
Every Mormon I have ever come into contact with has been extremely kind, happy, and helpful. I think that the media and other ignorant people choose to focus on the most unusual elements of the religion, take them out of context, and call them crazy. It is incredibly bigoted, intolerant, ignorant, and unkind. I think it is EXTREMELY unfair to compare the LDS church with Scientology. Ridiculous, in fact. For goodness' sake, they're good people. They're just misunderstood.
What about the magic underpants?
>> ^MINK:
i think what's wrong with it is: it's kinda bullshit from a lot of perspectives, both in content and by omission. but upvote because it's interesting to see all sides.
I appreciate the upvote and the comment that it is good to see all sides. I agree, and I think the Mormon side is sadly underrepresented, especially on videosift.
See, what this video does is it states the IMPORTANT elements of the church. Because most of the time people choose to focus on the unusual things and take them out of context, people think certain things are far more important to the church than they really are. For instance, the sacred garments that they wear (which, by the way, is not unheard of in other religions) are not by any means a main focus of their faith. You won't hear them talking about them in church because they are sacred to them, and they don't want the issue misunderstood and trampled under the feet of cruel people like Safran. They are not considered magic in any way, they are simply a reminder to the members of the church of the covenants that they make with God to keep his commandments. People choose to make such a big deal out of them it amazes me. I watched that video where Mormons are seen talking about how the garments protect them from danger and all of that, but most members don't believe that stuff. Those people are just superstitious wackos that you get in any religion. That kind of Mormon is pretty common in Utah, as you can imagine. The symbols are not supposed to protect you from evil. They are just symbolic reminders to resist temptation. I love how that guy asks Mormon critics for information about the garments instead of, say, a BISHOP? Wouldn't that be a novel idea?
What about the content is misleading? And what did they omit that is more important than what they included?
Every Mormon I have ever come into contact with has been extremely kind, happy, and helpful. I think that the media and other ignorant people choose to focus on the most unusual elements of the religion, take them out of context, and call them crazy. It is incredibly bigoted, intolerant, ignorant, and unkind. I think it is EXTREMELY unfair to compare the LDS church with Scientology. Ridiculous, in fact. For goodness' sake, they're good people. They're just misunderstood.
If you ever get a chance, read the biography of Howard Hughes.. particularly the last few chapters (if you don't have time to read the whole thing)... he hired only mormons to attend to his needs near the end of his life (you see only a glimpse of them in the DiCaprio movie near the end). He hired them because of their "principles", because they never drank, never smoked and were supposedly saintly people. This couldn't have been anything further from the truth. They ended up keeping him bed-ridden with sores from such treatment, kept him constantly deleriously drugged up, they drained his checking account quite often, forced him to sign a will that they wrote and these are only the documented parts. This was a group of them that actually conspired to defraud, degrade his health and deceive those that had previously interacted with him.
This isn't to say that Mormons are more prone to this type of behavior than any other set of people, from any other set of religious beliefs.
The fact is - they are people. People are flawed. Religion is flawed. From what I've seen, religion cannot truly alter the basic primal instincts that people have. I cannot trust someone merely because they are a member of a specific religion. In fact.. from my experience investigating many churches in my youth I find all religious members suspect to potentially unpredictable and damaging behavior.
The negative points that you brought up about their faith are true. They do go after "lost sheep" in a way that I understand must be annoying for members who leave. We do have to remember, which I think you do, that they believe that they are commanded by God to be his instruments in bringing souls to him. They honestly believe that the best thing for you is to come back, and their sincere desire to help makes them a little overexcited, perhaps.
What I find really interesting about anti-Mormon criticism is that people have major issues with Mormons claiming that their church is the "true church". Isn't it logical, though? If ANY religion believes that they teach the truth and nothing but the truth, aren't they claiming to be the only truth? Because anything that contradicts them would be lies, right? Mormons believe that other faiths teach truth, just not the WHOLE truth.
I think that it was definitely wrong for people to teach you that your friends wouldn't be able to play in Heaven with you. I know it sounds horrible to most people that in order to get to Heaven you have to become a Mormon, but again, I believe that issue is misunderstood, even by some Mormons. I read that book, Mormon Doctrine, by the way. They believe that certain ordinances that Jesus taught, like baptism, are neccesary for salvation. They also believe that the priesthood is neccesary for baptism. They further believe that the priesthood was lost from the earth after Jesus' death and after all of the remaining holders of the priesthood died, and that through Joseph Smith, the priesthood was restored to the Earth. Therefore, only Mormons have the authority to baptize, and so you have to become a church member to recieve the saving ordinance of baptism. So, again, people blow that way out of proportion. I don't think you do, though. I'm just using your comments as a springboard for things I've been dying to say to videosift people.
>> ^SDGundamX:
I was a Mormon for several years (lived in a rural area, was the closest church in town until I was about nine and a new Presbyterians church was built closer). I have to say I'm a bit confused at all the hate that's delivered towards them. Of all the churches I ever attended (and I attended lots as a kid), theirs had the most caring and active community I've ever seen. If you were sick, church members were there the same day with food and asking what they could do to help. They had lots of great family activities all year round, such as picnics and camping trips.
But what impressed me the most about the Mormon church is that they basically taught me the morals I hold true today. They didn't just teach the kids in Sunday school not to lie because "God says so." They explored the consequences of things like lying and stealing. We'd do role-plays where they'd make us think about the consequences our actions had on other people. Like, for instance, if you shoplifted a toy you really wanted, how would the toy store owner feel? How would he feed his family if people kept stealing the stuff in his shop? The fire-and-brimstone Christian churches I later attended never impressed me much with their Bible beating compared to this style of teaching.
This is not to say Mormons aren't without their flaws. In some ways, they do resemble a cult. When my family left, they hounded us for years trying to "save our souls" and get us to come back. They would just show up unannounced at our house or call at random hours. It was more annoying than anything else.
Another downside was the whole proselytizing thing--I distinctly remember being told as a child that if I wanted to be able to play with my friends in heaven that I'd have to convince them to become Mormons too. Otherwise I wouldn't see them there. To put that into perspective though, my Dad's priest told him the same thing about his Protestant friends back when he was a kid. The Mormon religion hasn't got a lock on the conversion market by any means.
All things considered, I find the Mormon religion to be relatively harmless. Yes, they believe in some odd things like the Book of Mormon, but at the end of the day, unlike a lot of self-proclaimed Christians, I found the Mormons to do more than just give lip service to their values and actually practice what they preach.
>> ^thepinky:
Every Mormon I have ever come into contact with has been extremely kind, happy, and helpful. I think that the media and other ignorant people choose to focus on the most unusual elements of the religion, take them out of context, and call them crazy. It is incredibly bigoted, intolerant, ignorant, and unkind. I think it is EXTREMELY unfair to compare the LDS church with Scientology. Ridiculous, in fact. For goodness' sake, they're good people. They're just misunderstood.
If you ever get a chance, read the biography of Howard Hughes.. particularly the last few chapters (if you don't have time to read the whole thing)... he hired only mormons to attend to his needs near the end of his life (you see only a glimpse of them in the DiCaprio movie near the end). He hired them because of their "principles", because they never drank, never smoked and were supposedly saintly people. This couldn't have been anything further from the truth. They ended up keeping him bed-ridden with sores from such treatment, kept him constantly deleriously drugged up, they drained his checking account quite often and these are only the documented parts. This was a group of them that actually conspired to defraud, degrade his health and deceive those that had previously interacted with him.
This isn't to say that Mormons are more prone to this type of behavior than any other set of people, from any other set of religious beliefs.
The fact is - they are people. People are flawed. Religion is flawed. From what I've seen, religion cannot truly alter the basic primal instincts that people have. I cannot trust someone merely because they are a member of a specific religion. In fact.. from my experience investigating many churches in my youth I find all religious members suspect to potentially unpredictable behavior.
Yes, I totally agree with you. I didn't mean to sound as if Mormons are universally good people. You get bad eggs in every group of people. Mormons are just as human as anybody. However, I have seen an unusual tendency for Mormons to be the sort of church-goers that go every week and that practice what they preach for the most part. This is not true in many cases, but in the majority that I have personally witnessed. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I'm not nearly eloquent enough to join in this debate though and thepinky seems to know what she is talking about.
Speaking as a Mormon myself, the video seems to be pretty straight forward. As with everything else in live there are always a great deal more in the details but if you really want to learn all that then YouTube is probably a poor place to look.
I'm not nearly eloquent enough to join in this debate though and thepinky seems to know what she is talking about.
No, thanks for the great comment that you made about YouTube not being the place to look. I couldn't agree with you more. We could definitely use more of your perspective around here. I just think that Mormons need a few non-Mormon friends to combat all of the RIDICULOUS anti-Mormon propaganda that goes around. The amount of persecution and the way that it is tolerated by intelligent people is SHOCKING, really. I'd like to see them meet a few non-Utah Mormons, go to the church a few times, and come out calling it a cult. I might sooner call evangelical churches cults, which I wouldn't.
The only other thing that sticks out in my mind as being very different from the usual Christian teaching would be the whole trinity thing. Mormons believe in three distinct personages that don't have that weird separate but one thing I've heard of.
Thanks for the comment, by the way. I find this part of your wording a little confusing, though:
>> ^theaceofclubz:
The only thing they didn't really bring up was the teaching (not worshiping or preaching) of the early church history from Joe in IL to Brigham in Missouri and out to Utah. Its not that there is any practice of praying to Joe or anything that occurs (people praying to saints always seemed really weird to me) but is definitely emphasized, especially the persecution and suffering of early worshipers. They sort of gloss over the fact that http://www.videosift.com/video/History-of-Mormonism-by-South-Park actually is an accurate account of what founded the religion (if anything its even fishier), past polygamy practices, and racism (mark of Cain, no longer church doctrine).
Were you trying to say that they should have addressed the early church in the video? I can understand them not bringing up Polygamy, given that it is controversial, no longer practiced, and not as widespread among church members as one might think. I think only 1% or something like that ever practiced it. And, yes, they do talk about Joseph Smith a good amount in church. After all, faith that he was a prophet is essential for members to have.
I need to read some more about the whole Native American thing, which is probably yet another doctrine oversimplified by most people. I can't really give an accurate defense for that at this point. Although, I do have some ideas.
I'd just like to preface the comments below this comment - with a request to keep it civil. Now, excuse me I have to go make the popcorn.
I'm not calling Mormons dumb - I've met some very sharp Saints. Anyone who calls a religious follower dumb, doesn't get it. Religious faith is not an intellectual exercise - there's no connection. Sure you could say that intellectuals and scientists are more likely to be atheists - but I would venture that this is because they are living much more within the natural world of math, biology and physics and less in the philosophical realm.
So, while I don't find the followers of mormonism "dumb", may I at least say that the tenants of Mormonism seem a bit far-fetched? Beyond all the plates and seeing stones- I find the religion built on very shaky foundations. J Smith was a first rate showman, polygamist and philanderer but hardly a prophet of god - unless you mean in the Jimmy Swaggart model.
Thepinky - you're great. I don't believe a word of what you're writing above but I still find it entertaining and welcome the fun discussion it will bring on.
I'd just like to preface the comments below this comment - with a request to keep it civil. Now, excuse me I have to go make the popcorn.
Why, thank you! I think you're great, too. I don't mind that you don't believe me. I just think Mormons are misunderstood. A lot of my defense of them comes from experiences I had in Colorado Springs, where many of my Mormon friends were treated ABOMINABLY by members of other Christian faiths in the area. I mean, you wouldn't even believe the stuff that went on or that it could be allowed to happen. I won't go TOO far into it, but I will mention that it involved rocks thrown at Mormons, defacement of Mormon homes and other property, Mormon children being called "devil worshipers", Mormon students given failing grades for no apparent reason, children being forbidden to play with Mormon kids, and oh so much more. Sickening. The sad thing is that the people who do these sorts of things claim that they are more Christian than Mormons. Ironic, isn't it?
Who's up for a bit of late night god talk - promote.
I'm not calling Mormons dumb - I've met some very sharp Saints. Anyone who calls a religious follower dumb, doesn't get it. Religious faith is not an intellectual exercise - there's no connection. Sure you could say that intellectuals and scientists are more likely to be atheists - but I would venture that this is because they are living much more within the natural world of math, biology and physics and less in the philosophical realm.
So, while I don't find the followers of mormonism "dumb", may I at least say that the tenants of Mormonism seem a bit far-fetched? Beyond all the plates and seeing stones- I find the religion built on very shaky foundations. J Smith was a first rate showman, polygamist and philanderer but hardly a prophet of god - unless you mean in the Jimmy Swaggart model.
Yes, they can seem extremely far-fetched. I admit that whole-heartedly. I just think that if people really invested some intelligent and unbiased thought into the whole deal, they would be surprised by how logical it can be. I agree with Safran when he said that he doesn't believe that Mormonism is any LESS logical than other religions. That is the primary point I'm trying to make. Don't single poor Mormons out. They are severely misunderstood, and perhaps people take for granted just how grounded other Christian faiths are. They can get pretty darn nutty, if you ask me. Often nuttier, more sheep-like, meaner, and less apt to follow the teachings of Christ than Mormons, in my opinion.
Views about Joseph Smith are hard to form objectively. We didn't know the guy. I think philanderer is probably the most innapropriate term for him that you used, but that's just my opinion.
Mind if I rant about polygamy for a while? No? Thanks!
I think that to view polygamy as some kind of twisted sex game as a rule is ignorant at best. Ethnocentric, too. As a woman, I am deeply abhorred by it at times, but when I really try to think about it with an open mind, I am surprised by what I find. And I'm a feminist, if you can believe that. And if you read early accounts of it among Mormons, you might be surprised by what you find. People jump to conclusions about Smith quite easily when they hear "polygamy".
This is a hard topic to discuss in light of what just happened with those TOTALLY NOT MORMONS in Texas. That is polygamy at its worst.
I heard this guy on the radio years ago and he made a point that made me laugh and ultimately think about polygamy differently. He said that people have less and less of a problem with infidelity these days, and polygamy isn't much different except that you're married to the women, and your wife gives her permission. I don't agree with him, and I think infidelity is disgusting, but there you have it.
If you study ethics and philosophy, there is this concept that I agree with. I can't remember the name of it. Whether or not something seems wrong to you, it should not be against the law if it does not hurt anyone (increases the happiness in the world) and is done between consenting adults. If two men and a woman go into a hotel room and all three of them come out smiling, what difference does it make what happened in there as far as the law is concerned? Now, in the case of this polygamist colony, abuse was occuring. But in the case of the early Mormon church, polygamy was HIGHLY exclusive, monitored, and to my knowledge everyone was perfectly happy and the families were functional. Often the women were widowed and needed support. Or they had no marriage prospects. So, what's the big problem? Well educated and dedicated Mormons don't even try to distance themselves from polygamy like some do. That's because there isn't anything wrong with it if it's done for the right reasons. If a guy is just horny and wants sex slaves, it's obviously immoral. But if he is just trying to do what he thinks is right and treats his wives and children well, more power to him, I say. Mormons actually only discontinued it because the U.S. government started imprisoning, fining, and otherwise abusing church members. A dark chapter in the history of famous U.S. "religious tolerance", in my opinion.
I might be crazy, but at least I'm open-minded-ish?
I fell out of theology in general approximately 10 yrs. ago because I failed to reconcile the concept of hell with just and loving god. For 10 yrs. I was the only deconvert in my family.
My brother was a priesthood holding member and church attendant for 35 yrs. and only confessed to the family that he was no longer a follower this last Easter. He lost his faith by specifically looking into church history and my criticisms of it are informed on conversations I've had with him. Unfortunately it is 5am here and I won't be able to call him for another 2 hours, at which time I will offer a more substantive critique.
Based purely on my own experience, it seems the church sort of attempts to set up a persecution complex in its members, an us against them mentality if you wish. I was very aware of the fact that there is antimormon literature and people actively seeking to bring down the church. I never read any and it is seen as purely blasphemous material. Any reading of it is highly frowned upon by church members. When I was a member I had never heard of Joe being anything but a standup guy. Indeed, even Dag's statement that Joe was a "showman and philanderer" would have shocked the shit out of me. Of course its possible that this is only because I fell out at a young age and I would imagine that with the advent of the internet this is very different today.
"Were you trying to say that they should have addressed the early church in the video?"
No, I was only trying to point out that the emphasis on early church history is probably an area in the mormon church in which they part ways with most denominations of Christianity.
"Oh, crap. PLEASE don't refer people to that stupid South Park video!"
I stand by my previous statement that this is a factually correct portrayal of how the word of god was received by Joe, including the sheet. Nobody was allowed to see plates as he translated them. You forgot the magic stones.
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Translation_of_the_Book_of_Mormon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates
"And as for the Martin Harris thing, they're trying to make Mormons look like idiots for believing that."
How else do you think I would see it?
"Since it was likely that some enemy of Smith's had their hands on the pages, it would have been stupid to translate them again in exactly the same way. Someone could have changed the manuscript and then shown how it was different from the new translation, thus proving Smith a false prophet. I know it seems unlikely to us, but it isn't as if Mormons have never thought about it. They aren't "dumb"."
I can honestly say that the thought never occurred to me or came up in church at all. I wouldn't say dumb, but naive.
"After watching the video it was my intention to write a scathing refutation of the blasphemy. However, after doing a little web searching I found the facts weren't going to support me. First the only glaring inaccuracies I found in the video were:
Mormons don't believe that physical sex took place between Mary and Heavenly Father. Jesus was definitely the son of the father and impregnation occurred somehow but the Mary is a virgin thing is still in effect so I think it rules out a physical union. I'm not completely 100% on this though, so I'm going to ask my mom tomorrow.
The quote at the end by Joe is almost certainly fake, but I have no proof of this and may be wrong.
On the more shocking theology that isn't necessarily broached in Sunday School:
Elohim - Yup, thats Gods name. It also refers to the belief in multiple gods that aren't worshiped or thought to have any relevance in earth life. see
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Elohim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim#Elohim_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement
Kolob - Yes, there is literally a freakin' star in the universe that you could literally point to and say "thats where god lives." (Heavens Gate creepy) Its exact location is disputed and not addressed by church authorities, try a search for "Kolob constellation"
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Kolob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob#Literal_reading
http://lds.about.com/library/bl/faq/blkolob.htm
Celestial Polygamy - It was my understanding when in the faith that Polygamy was a celestial practice that had be suspended during our time on earth due to prophetic revelation, and that when you do get in heaven men can marry multiple wives, but women can only marry one man. The whole prophetic revelation occurring at the same point in history that the US government made the ultimatum that Mormons had to give up polygamy before they would receive statehood is just seen as a coincidence. (seriously) After searching a little though a guess there is a little dispute over it.
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Celestial_polygamy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_marriage
I'd say that anything not outlined in this message is about 95% accurate, and certainly presented in the most sensationalist fashion.
I wasn't aware of most of this theological stuff while in the church and can understand when Mormons claim its inaccurate. However, if you believe church doctrine to be true then you sort of carry the theology indirectly."
Come back to me with this argument when you've found better sources. A lesson about church doctrine: You cannot believe that Mormons believe it unless you get it straight from the source. That is, it has to come from canonized scripture, church lesson manuals, or at least General Conference talks from the 12 apostles or the prophet. Someone with authority has to have declared that it is doctrine in order to claim that it is doctrine. Okaybee? Wiki does not count. I'm not talking history here. History can be filtered by the church and you can't neccesarily get all of the information from their sources. But doctrine, yes. BECAUSE IT IS ONLY DOCTRINE IF THEY SAY IT IS DOCTRINE, NOT IF YOU SAY IT IS DOCTRINE! Why don't people understand this about religion? Catholics are often the victims of this, too. You can site as many sources as you want, but it isn't church doctrine unless it is official church doctrine. I can't stress this enough. And I have a feeling some people will still fail to understand it.
>> ^theaceofclubz:
I left this response recently on pinky's page in response to her critique on http://www.videosift.com/video/What-Mormon-Theology-Is-Really-All-About-1975 and thought it was applicable to the thread so I am pasting it.
"After watching the video it was my intention to write a scathing refutation of the blasphemy. However, after doing a little web searching I found the facts weren't going to support me. First the only glaring inaccuracies I found in the video were:
Mormons don't believe that physical sex took place between Mary and Heavenly Father. Jesus was definitely the son of the father and impregnation occurred somehow but the Mary is a virgin thing is still in effect so I think it rules out a physical union. I'm not completely 100% on this though, so I'm going to ask my mom tomorrow.
The quote at the end by Joe is almost certainly fake, but I have no proof of this and may be wrong.
On the more shocking theology that isn't necessarily broached in Sunday School:
Elohim - Yup, thats Gods name. It also refers to the belief in multiple gods that aren't worshiped or thought to have any relevance in earth life. see
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Elohim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim#Elohim_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement
Kolob - Yes, there is literally a freakin' star in the universe that you could literally point to and say "thats where god lives." (Heavens Gate creepy) Its exact location is disputed and not addressed by church authorities, try a search for "Kolob constellation"
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Kolob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob#Literal_reading
http://lds.about.com/library/bl/faq/blkolob.htm
Celestial Polygamy - It was my understanding when in the faith that Polygamy was a celestial practice that had be suspended during our time on earth due to prophetic revelation, and that when you do get in heaven men can marry multiple wives, but women can only marry one man. The whole prophetic revelation occurring at the same point in history that the US government made the ultimatum that Mormons had to give up polygamy before they would receive statehood is just seen as a coincidence. (seriously) After searching a little though a guess there is a little dispute over it.
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Celestial_polygamy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_marriage
I'd say that anything not outlined in this message is about 95% accurate, and certainly presented in the most sensationalist fashion.
I wasn't aware of most of this theological stuff while in the church and can understand when Mormons claim its inaccurate. However, if you believe church doctrine to be true then you sort of carry the theology indirectly."
But, seriously, Ace, I like you. You give me a good challenge. I was delighted to see that you lost your faith because of the age-old "problem of evil," which is the name for the whole hell+justgod=wtf? phenomenon you described. I wrote a ridiculously long paper on JUST THAT TOPIC about a year ago. Edit: Did you know that Mormon theology deals with that problem rather naturally? This is what got me so into that book, Mormon Doctrine. It's crazy! I can send you my paper sometime if you want.
The dilemna is:
1. All-good
2. All-powerful
3. Evil exists
Does that look familiar? Man, I love this stuff. We should chat.
^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanence
The below gnostic gospel, made notable in stigmata, provides that you can find "god" every where around you. All types of "god", the angry "god", the happy "god", the sad god. etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas
So in a way all church's are useless under the gospels words. I was raised catholic, until I grew up. Any organization that requires me to go to a 'Mass' of some sorts on a Sunday in the morning will not ever get my patronage. Not because I want to sleep, but because I don't want to be around all those people who I don't agree with.
Simple question: If this video is trying to give a realistic depiction of the mormon faith, why does it quickly pass over Joseph Smith? Is Joseph Smith and the history of the origins of the church not important?
Um, yeah. It said about all it needed to say in a 6 1/2 minute summary...? Would you have liked them to give a rebuttal to all criticism of the early church? Joseph Smith is certainly the beginning of the modern church, but he isn't the cornerstone of their beliefs. Christ is, and they talked about Him a lot.
>> ^braindonut:
^ An atheist, by definition, is agnostic. In the same way that we are agnostic about leprachauns, zeus, fairies, dragons, frost giants, thor, etc... To be atheist does not imply certainty. It just means that you require proof through observation and have no interest in practicing belief without proof. (The whole teapot agnostic argument applies...)
All I know is that Mormons are unusually happy and nice, and have a hard time living amongst New Yorkers lol
Good call.
"In worship, a believer in immanence might say that one can find God wherever one seeks."
^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanence
The below gnostic gospel, made notable in stigmata, provides that you can find "god" every where around you. All types of "god", the angry "god", the happy "god", the sad god. etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas
So in a way all church's are useless under the gospels words. I was raised catholic, until I grew up. Any organization that requires me to go to a 'Mass' of some sorts on a Sunday in the morning will not ever get my patronage. Not because I want to sleep, but because I don't want to be around all those people who I don't agree with.
I fail to see how this is relevent. Sorry.
Come again....
What's the problem? I'm confused.
???
>> ^Farhad2000:
Anti-Mormon propaganda?
Come again....
It's like Scientology. Also based on questionable facts, but am sure there are some nice folks who practice it.
I don't really understand what you mean by anti-Mormon propaganda, I would love if you could show me some sources.
However, the comment about Joseph Smith - I only bring it up because most of what this video states is VERY similar to mainstream christianity. The differences are mainly in the book of mormon, no? Which has a lot to do with Joseph Smith, no? And both of those aspects are pretty much only briefly mentioned.
"Men are that they might have joy" - Hehe, I can get behind that. Hedonism for the win.
Furthermore, ugh, that music is soooo *happy and *sappy. Blurgh.
i think the thing is that all organised religions are kinda flawed and to say that one is "better" than another, or should be "excused because it's followers are nice" is really weak.
if the magic hat part of mormonism is so unimportant, why not just say you are a happy active jesus follower, instead of insisting on specifically following the guy with the magic hat? it might be a fine system to use in your community if you are brought up in that tradition, but these days we have contact with other peoples and ideas, and going around with a book that you literally pulled out of a hat is always going to be controversial.
jesus died on a cross, not in a gunfight. that IS important.
I have nothing especially against mormons that I don't have against all other religions. They are all equally false, be it Christianity, Islam, Scientology (...).
"Men are that they might have joy" - Hehe, I can get behind that. Hedonism for the win.
Furthermore, ugh, that music is soooo happy and sappy. Blurgh.
That's awesome. Treat 'em all the same. Thanks for playing.
there were probably nice members of saddam hussein's secret police but that doesn't legitimise saddam's ideology.
i think the thing is that all organised religions are kinda flawed and to say that one is "better" than another, or should be "excused because it's followers are nice" is really weak.
if the magic hat part of mormonism is so unimportant, why not just say you are a happy active jesus follower, instead of insisting on specifically following the guy with the magic hat? it might